thanks for all your comments guys, much appreciated! i think more explanation (and then debate) is needed. okay, these are my thoughts/theories:
"assumptions make an ass out of you" - i think this is SO true. when people look at me, why do they automatically assume i am of a particular culture? what if i am not? basically (for those that don't know me that read this blog) i am asian; when people see me they assume i fall into one of the three major groups: chinese, japanese or korean. i know of course there's vietnamese, philipino, malaysian, etc. etc. etc., but for the most part people think i am one of the "top three". once they assume that they blurt out the first chinese/japanese/korean phrase they know; most of the time it's either "ni how ma?" (mandarin) or "konnichiwa" (japanese):
a) chinese is not just "chinese" - there's mandarin, cantonese, taiwanese, hakka, etc. etc. etc., and yet people just assume chinese is chinese - they are either not educated enough or too ignorant to know the difference (i'll let you decide which one, though they might go hand in hand);
b) the young cashier said what he said i think because he wanted to be friendly and "connect" with me. he also told me that he spent six hours in hong kong while waiting for his visa into china. i think it's great that he has travelled to different countries which has (hopefully) expanded his horizons and world view; in this instance i did not feel all that offended, so i made small talk with him and informed him on the different languages/regional dialects that exist in the region, that he was getting confused with.
c) what really bugs me are not people like the cashier boy, but random strangers that walk by that blurt out chinese/japanese/korean phrases just to see my reaction. what the fuck? what is the point of that? i just don't get it. i don't go up to a white person and say "jolly good mate", "put a shrimp on the barbee" or "so you screw sheep?", just to see what reaction i get out of them; i don't look at a white person and automatically assume they are irish or scottish or british or german, so why is it okay for people to do the same to me?
d) as for the "multicultural-ness" of toronto compared to london, both cities are multicultural, yes, but (and if i'm biased because i was raised in t.o. then so be it) i've always found t.o. to be a more tolerant and accepting society towards people of colour as compared to london. with toronto there's a feeling that all people of colour are in this together; we are torontonians and this is our city and we're all trying to get along and make this city work, whereas with london i feel very much that everyone is only out for themselves, that it's more a matter of personal survival in this urban jungle than it is about establishing any sense of community. i'm sure i can have a lengthy debate about this with a born-and-bred londoner, but from my experience living in this city (almost three years in total and counting), i feel this to be the case.
an interesting article brought to my attention by mutton face emphasizes my point; published in the globe and mail (one of canada's national newspapers), it's about a journalist from calgary that swaps cities with a journalist from toronto; they write about their views on the respective city they visit. i like the article on toronto published by the calgarian journalist; his words capture the feeling and essence of toronto and torontonians that i am trying to explain; i'll let his words do the talking.
i think i'll ask my friend missruckus to contribute to this debate; she is very socially and politically aware and has had many debates on issues of colour and race, and i'd very much appreciate her opinion. in addition, she has also lived in london and toronto, so she's experienced for herself the "vibe" of both cities. who knows, maybe she'll disagree on my take of t.o. and london! missruckus if you're reading, send me a shout out!
CET
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london is certainly not very diverse, imho (having spent a year calling it home). torontonians are rather spoiled, but this is how i like it.
i agree with you, CET, that it's annoying when people whip out the first random asian word they think they know. i think this is for the following reasons (amongst others):
1. they think we all look the same, and the thought we might not be japanese or chinese doesn't occur to them.
2. people of colour are always considered "other" - that's why we get questions like "where are you REALLY from?" (even though maybe it was your great-great-great grandfather who first came to canada to build the railroads so you're like 4th generation canadian, way before their grandmother came as a british war bride) or "you don't look canadian!" (what does a "canadian" look like? if we want to get really historical, they are not white brits or europeans - they are aboriginal)
2. it usually comes from white people (though i have had others doing it to me too.. but mostly white). it's a white privilege thang and the sense of entitlement that comes with it. here's a little anecdote that demonstrates this well (one that most asian women are very familiar with):
a white guy once tried to hit on me by saying "i know you were born here.." (huh? how would he know this? and i actually wasn't born here, but i imagine he's re-worked his line after too many asian women got pissed at him for the random "where are you from?" question) "..but may i ask where your parents are from?"
problems:
- he's a total stranger.
- so.. what right does he have asking me a personal question like where my parents were born?
- it's none of his business and offended me.
- his asking this comes from a sense of entitlement he has as a white male to be able to ask us whatever he wants (never thinking once how it might be rude since he's a total stranger), and feel he has the right to know personal details about us.
-it's cuz he thinks of us as the "other" - our families could have been here for generations, but somehow, we're always seen as foreigners based on appearance alone.
- i would be surprised if he went up to a white girl and said this to her. instead, he'd probably be more like "this is great weather!" "do you have an extra smoke?" "you must be tired cuz you've been running through my mind all day!" etc..
-i never ask white people i have never spoken to before where they're from. why would i do this? it's like going up to someone random and being like, "how old are you?" can you imagine the strange look i would get if i walked up to a random white man standing at the bus stop, "where were you born?" he'd probably first ask me why i wanted to know because it would seem like a strange question.. so why is it not strange when asked of us?
translation of what "where are you from?" means (i don't care about "good intentions" because they are useless when i am made to feel offended by your sense of entitlement, white person):
"where are you from? you're not white so you don't look like you actually belong here. no matter how long you've been here, i will always judge you on your skin colour and consider you a foreigner, even if you tell me you're 'really from canada' cuz come on, only white people could ever really be from canada!"
even immigrants get offended by this question because it's like saying to them that no matter how hard they try, no matter the fact that they now have their canadian citizenship and are starting a new life trying to be a part of canadian society, they will never ever be truly "canadian" cuz theyir skin is a different colour.
see why it's offensive and why "good intentions" are meaningless?
I understand now more what you meant ET.
The one thing that I will say though (being a white female) that has lived away from home in two countries - is that I constantly get asked 'where are you from?'
But - I appreciate that I get asked this not because of the colour of my skin, but because of my accent. I have to also say that the question never offends me (even though 95% of people that ask me assume I'm either British or Australian). I generally like that people are interested in where I am from (even if the assumptions is pretty much always wrong).
I would also say that while away from home - that I have asked and do still ask this question of people all the time - and obviously not just white people. Normally its because I detect an accent.
Actually, I suck at telling different accents. So most new people that I meet - I would ask where they are from. White, black or any colour in between.
And I'm just being friendly.
BUT - I would never go up to anyone and start trying to speak in 'their' language, unless I already knew where they were from.
As an aside, I have to say that the "its a white privilege thang and the sense of entitlement that comes with it" - bugs the hell out of me. Now that is a HUGE generalisation - isn't it?
I was born in England, moved to NZ when I was 5. I am without a doubt a kiwi - through and through. I am no different to any other immigrant in NZ - and obviously, pretty much everyone in NZ is an immigrant. My point being - (and in this respect, I can understand where you are coming from), I have never been 'asked' - 'no where are you REALLY from' - probably because I'm white. But you know what - I have also never asked that question of anyone else.
xx K
Toronto is spoiled...
At least the downtowners are. They enjoy the benifits of the metropolis and yet they're still just a bunch of conservitive folk. Flash without substance.
actually, downtowners are not the conservative folk (aside from on bay street - but ask where they live, as opposed to work). it's the suburbanites that tend to be. most of downtown is actually a liberal riding (aside from mine which is NDP).. not saying the liberals aren't conservative, but it's not the tory party. people in the burbs often vote PC.
kiwigirl, it doesn't matter if you're just being friendly or if you ask the same of everyone (do you really? or only if the white ones have different accents? have you ever asked people of colour in general, even those without different accents? or said something to them like, "what's your background/ethnicity?" - almost every white person does this, until they realize or are told otherwise). also, have you ever gotten a less-than-friendly reaction (this could be anything from avoidance to just being polite to hostility to general unfriendliness, etc.. i tend to reply cuz i am trained to, but generally avoid the person after and not engage with them further.. but inside, i am offended) from a person of colour (accented or not) when you've asked them that question?
as for white privilege, here are some good starters. based in the US but applicable elsewhere as well:
http://www.cwru.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whitefolo.htm
missruckus ---
I can't say that I have never ever asked someone whats your background/ethnicity?
Lets take Evil Twins sister for a start. When I first met her - I knew she was from Canada (thats not hard to pick, she has an accent!). I can't remember how I found out or when I found out that she was born in Hong Kong, but I obviously know that now. Chances are I asked her.
I do honestly think that I would be just as likely to ask someone who is white as someone who is not white - where they are from.
Its funny - now that I think about this - I realise that I ask this all the time. In America I used to take cabs all the time. I always used to ask my cab drivers where they were from (I'm pretty chatty) - and they would usually ask back where I was from. The thing I don't get - is why is this question offensive? I'm not asking to be rude, I'm making conversation.
If I met you randomly lets say in London through Evil Twin. And we got chatting. And I asked you where you were from. Would you be offended by that? Lets assume I didn't know you were Canadian and you answered you were from Canada. My next question is likely to be - where in Canada?
Honestly, unless someone asks in a way that implies 'you can't be from this country because you are not white' - I do not see how asking where someone is from can be offensive. And is it only offensive if the person asked is not white?
I looked through the links. I can't tell you whether I have gotten more things in my life because I am white or not - I don't know. Probably? But maybe I would have gotten more if I was male? Or maybe I would have gotten more if I was skinnier or if my parents were richer, or if i was more beautiful?
The only thing I can say - is that I don't think I deserve more because I'm white. Or less because I'm female.
Well, actually, I'm not sure if you consider Scarberia part of the 'burbs, but we're VERY anti-conservative up here. In thelast election the majority was from the Liberal party (GO, Jim Karygiannis, GO). And you know why that is...it's because of the so called immigrants here. Houses are cheaper here, crime is on the rise, and welfare is dealt out like it's candy. The people that are better off (not super rich or anything but don't rely on welfare or minimum wage jobs as their sole means of support) actually vote Liberal to help out the others around them. What's the point of cutting taxes and giving "more" back to the rich? The poorer will just demand more money later on, and where will they get this money....that's right, from the rich/better off. So it doesn't make sense for us to vote Conservative because it's worse for the people that can afford a nicer lifestyle.
Not sure if this makes any sense, but I know this from personal experience. I vote Liveral because a world in which we help the less fortunate, is a better world to live in. It's ridiculous to make the gap between the rich and the poor greater than it already is.
CET, you're Asian, damnit, I'm always the last one to know! :)
All jokes aside I do have a couple of comments.
Firsit of all I'm admit that on a day to day basis I'm not aware of a white/male priveledge, but I have read the results of studies that show that if two resumes that show identical skills, education and experience are sent to multiple employers the one with the "white" name will get far more replies than the one with the "not-white" name. So I'll admit that I most certainly at times have received an edge in situations because I'm a white male.
But I'm not sure how that relates to asking someone where they are from. If I meet someone my age in Toronto there is a very good chance that they are not from Toronto (regardless of their colour). So I don't see why asking them where they are from is wrong.
To MD, and I quote, "If I meet someone my age in Toronto there is a very good chance that they are not from Toronto (regardless of their colour)." What is this comment based on? Your statement implies that most people in their late 20s in Toronto are not from Toronto. Where'd you get this from? That totally doesn't make sense.
Thanks kiwigirl for pointing out my accent ;o) Like donuts and maple syrup, eh?
Canuckian, my comment was based on anecdotal evidence (the best kind!), when I look around at my groups of friends here I see that few of them are Toronto natives.
If you want actual stats take a look at:
http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm
If 49% of Toronto's population was born outside of Canada, and people tend to immigrant while in their 20s it would make sense that a large number of Torontonians in the 20s would be not from Toronto, and that does't take into account all of the Canada born people that move to Toronto for school or work.
it's not the "where are you from?" thing that is the problem, if all you care to know is what city i am from or whatever. it's when people ask it but actually want to get at what my ethnicity is that is the problem. basically, the whole "where are you really from?" type of deal. and white people just don't get asked that the way we do, unless you have a different accent from where you are. i have a canadian accent and will get asked it in canada. or i'll get asked it abroad and when i say "canada," people don't believe that's where i must really be from.
also, i don't mind telling people if i actually know them and it comes up in conversation.. so like the case with you (kiwi girl) asking canuckian. the problem is when it comes from a stranger, which is how this whole convo began in the first place (like with the case of CET's grocery clerk). i remember one time i was in brighton with the guy i was seeing back then and he asked the brown-skinned owner of the cafe we were in where he was from (just randomly when his order was being taken) and the owner said "i havebeen here for 10 years" and walked away. my ex then asked me if he was being offensive (he had no clue but obviously noticed the reaction) and i said yes. my ex was just genuinely curious and loves "diversity" and is interested in people, etc.etc.. but that still didn't mean it was okay for him to ask someone he didn't know the way he did. i generally don't mind when other people of colour ask me that question though, since they are not white like me, so it comes from a different place.. i only mind when white people ask me it.
and to the scarberian, my family lives there too. and yes, it is more conservative than downtown. i remember in the election before the last one, there were quite a lot of tory seats in scarborough, compared with downtown. i think it might be the case this time too, though i'll have to doublecheck. i don't think there are any tory seats downtown at all. and an NDP seat would never happen in the burbs at this rate, whereas it does happen downtown (like my current riding).
When I said conseritive I ment like ... in socialbility. Politics aside. Hah
I do understand the difference between the question 'where are you from?' and 'where are you really from'. And I can understand why the second is offensive.
Now what I don't get - is why you only mind when white people ask you the question?
People the world round are generally interested where other people are from. Well I know I am. Its one of the great things about travelling, is learning about different cultures, places etc. If I was never curious about such things, I would learn a hell of a lot less.
Personally, I mind it when both white and non-white people ask. Their question implies the same thing regardless of what colour they are. I got asked it when I was travelling in Europe. Actually, rather than in a "subtle" question format, some folks just came up to me and asked "Chinese?" or "Japanese?"
And MD, I know that almost half of Toronto's population was born outside of Canada, however, you are assuming that most people immigrate while in their 20s. CET and I are perfect examples of that not being true. Regardless of when people immigrate, the fact that we don't have an "accent" and are people of colour is the issue here.
Canuckian....yes you and your evil twin weren't in your 20s, but how old were your parents (the people who made the decision to immigrate) when they brought you?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in each case when you (canuckian, missruckus, cet) said that either you, or another person was offended by being asked about their background the person doing the asking was a stranger? So would I be correct is saying that if I ask a friend about their background I'm probably okay as long as I do it with honest intents (ie to get to know them)?
First, unless you can back up your assumption that most people immigrate when in their 20s, that's a moot point and unrelated to the initial topic of discussion.
Second, no one is arguing with you or anyone else about whether asking your friend about their background is offensive. The bottom line is that certain people feel they have the right to ask such a question of others and that the question does not apply to them. I refer you to miss ruckus' comments above and as I've stated before, "Regardless of when people immigrate, the fact that we don't have an "accent" and are people of colour is the issue here."
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